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Meteorkrieg

This task is closed
Created atOctober 23, 2009
Created byTimo Vuorensola
ClosedNovember 25, 2009
Shots given13

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Marcus Wikström Good sized city destroyer
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6/14%
Thierry Gschwind Get a asteroid...
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5/12%
Carl Voluntaryist How about a Near-Earth-Object instead?
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4/9%
Michael Substelny Orbital Altitude, but NOT Orbit
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4/9%
Luke Fallon Meteor Hits
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3/7%
Michael Substelny 400,000 Meter Drop = 35 Meter Rock
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3/7%
MajorD Asteroid Calculator
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3/7%

Closing Note

Thanks for the data and calculations. Now we know.

Description

Hi, all!

Gonna unveil one part of Nazi plan: They pick two huge stones from Moon and drag them all the way to Earth and drop them to cities.

Calculate me, what is the size of a meteor dragged with a big-ass fast ship to Earth orbit and the dropped to a city - big enough to destroy the city, but not big enough to destroy there whole world.

Thanks!


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No-user-picture-set
Ralph Kietzmann November 08, 2009 18:22 3 Thumb-ups
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alternative attack with satellites

another alternative attack would be the "three satellit sister attack".
let me explain. during the cold war russia , formaly known as the Soviet Union, launched a huge amount of satelitttes. most of them were even used today.
but there's also a not well known number of abandoneds which doesn't full fill any task. so if we crack into these satelittes we could adjust the orbit to reroute it onto the earth. Well one satelitte is small and would get burned in the earth athmospehre, so we adjusting 3 or 4 sattelites in a row. If the first or even the second get burned there are even the two others. because they are "travelling" in the shadow of the first two. normal military spectators would recognize these two satelittes as one, so even if they defeat one, they would befaced with the next one in that row. this chain of sattelittes couldn't get extended to far because at a critical point you would recognize some parts of the end of that "satelitte row".
the bad part of this technique is, that it isn't so effectivly. you can't crush citys/landscapes with it. but you can destroy expensive unit like aircraft carriers or stand alone buildings like the white house. those this whole satelitte story is some sort of "lancet attack".
think of the end of the russian space station "mir"

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No-user-picture-set
MajorD November 08, 2009 09:08 3 Thumb-ups
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Asteroid Calculator

Asteroid calculator.
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/
Here's an easier prettier one.
http://simulator.down2earth.eu/#

These let you find out the effects at any given distance as based on different scenarios.

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Le_voyage_dans_la_lune_thumb
Jack Malinowski November 02, 2009 01:19 2 Thumb-ups
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Phase One - FireStorm

Agreeing w/Stick and some of the others...

Perhaps the Nazis may organize a super station, ionizing the the satellitic space garbage into hail to simulate 'firestorms' 'blitzes' etc on urban targets...

it may be more believeable, cost-effective, and it might clear the troposphere for a massive invasion...

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Jack Malinowski November 06, 2009 17:05 Flag

As per Reuters (Nov 4) :

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33619417/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Space Junk poses a real threat...

(null) November 02, 2009 01:20 Flag

...or if you wanted it in more simplistic terms they could send a giant "space magnet" to create an artificial asteroid as it goes along by gathering all the junk in orbit.

I don't know if that is at all realistic, but I think an audience would understand it and believe in it as much as they would Nazi UFOs on the Moon... :)

Mike_face_thumb
Michael Substelny November 05, 2009 19:21 3 Thumb-ups
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400,000 Meter Drop = 35 Meter Rock

If you accept the 400,000 meter drop for a 8.370 x 10^13 J impact in my previous shot, then here are some further numbers:

Assuming the rock came from the moon, average lunar density = 3.4 gm/cm^3.

Further assume the rock is roughly spherical. Then we can use this web page to calculate the effects of friction, arriving at an impact speed and the mass and radius of the rock:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/mechanics/fallq.html#c1

This tells me that the moon nazis need a rock with mass 76,327,612 kg. Assuming I didn't drop a decimal place (I'm working on something else right now) this rock will have a diameter of about 35 meters. That size should look good when towed by the flying saucers shown in the Iron Sky trailer.

Note that the calculation accounts for friction, but it does not account for ablation. I assume the rock will neither burn nor crumble while falling.

The rock's terminal velocity is just 5,480 km/hr. This is a fraction of the velocity of a re-entering spaceship (at least 27,400 km/hr) so the rock does not need to burn very much. The 5,480 km/hr wind may cause it to crumble a bit, but even the crumbs will hit the target pretty hard. If you want to show bits of the rock breaking off as it falls, start with a slightly bigger rock.

If you want the moon nazis to drop from an even lower altitude then start with a much bigger rock.

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Mike_face_thumb
Michael Substelny November 05, 2009 18:53 4 Thumb-ups
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Orbital Altitude, but NOT Orbit

Neither dropping the stones from orbit nor diverting asteroids would be optimal strategy for the moon nazis. Assuming they have anti-gravity technology, their best strategy is to simply hover over the Earth and release the stone a few minutes before the target city rotates beneath them.

This makes aiming easy while reducing the energy absorbed by Earth's atmosphere, since the stone will start at hovering v = 0 kph instead of orbital v = 27,400 kph.

In quick, rough terms:

Suppose the moon nazis want to hit the city with the same energy as the Hiroshime bomb, about 8.370 x 10^13 Joules. If they want a rock to hit a city with with that much energy, when they drop it the rock must have at least that much potential energy.

PE = mgh
solving for mass:
m = PE/(gh)

Let's give the moon nazis two simple scenarios. In the first they want to release the rock from a high altitude of 2,000,000 meters.

(8.370 x 10^13 J)/(9.8 ms/s*2000000 m) = 4,270,408 kilograms.

In the second scenario the moon nazis want to drop a bigger rock from a lower altitude of 400,000 meters:

(8.370 x 10^13 J)/(9.8 ms/s*400000 m) = 21,352,040 kilograms.

Note that I have assumed a rock of infinite density so friction will be ignored. I leave it to you to decide on the density of the rock the moon nazis will choose.

I think the second scenario is better because:

a) It starts with a bigger rock closer to Earth, appearing more terrifying.
b) The rock will be visible from the ground for a longer time, again more terrifying.
c) The bigger rock needs less velocity, so friction is less of a factor.

In my next message I'll go into more detail.

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Le_voyage_dans_la_lune_thumb
Jack Malinowski November 02, 2009 01:25 1 Thumb-up
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Earth - The White Planet

With respect,

The Nazis, might consider earth to be the White Planet and their #1 priority might be to conserve the White climate while wiping those 'darker' races from the world.

Dropping Nutrino grade materials might not be considered very Nazi and might therefore work against the IronSky comedy.

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(null) November 03, 2009 03:00 Flag

I think they loved the idea of people living in the countryside, they just didn't want to live there themselves. :D

Getting back on topic, maybe these are relatively precise strikes by these asteroids aimed at destroying key targets?

That would be in keeping with their strategy when they tried to invade Britain, the initial air attacks weren't general bombing but very specifically aimed at particular British airfields and radar installations. Many nowadays feel that if the Nazis had kept on with their specific bombing and ignored London, they might have weakened Britain enough to actually conquer it, which would have possibly won them the war.

Obviously city-destroying meteorites would be on a much larger scale, but if they're aimed at the right places that could be a first step to conquering the earth.

Jack Malinowski November 02, 2009 18:49 Flag

I totally agree w/ Kriss, paradoxes abound; just like to point out the Nazi emphasis on folk, land, farming, etc... and their vilification of all things 'urban.'

I would think 70yrs. of planning might yield more intricate plans than spoiling 'the good earth' whole sale.

(null) November 02, 2009 02:04 Flag

I know they preached all kinds of guff about racial superiority, but weren't most of the Nazi's victims light-skinned...?

Thierry_gschwind_thumb
Thierry Gschwind October 23, 2009 12:26 5 Thumb-ups
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Get a asteroid...

I think the Nazi should not try to bring a rock from moon, but try to divert a asteroid from somewhere else. Their spaceship are good enough to interplatenar travel besides between Earth and Moon. Also this needs to be prepared a few years in advace. With small correction just before.
A 200 m dark rock could not be detected by Earth astronomers until a few week or even a few days before the impact. Also it could come from another direction an the moon, so that it could be hidden that it is an artificial impact.
That why a high impact angle can be achieved creating a huge explosion.

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Charles Anderson November 01, 2009 23:35 Flag

True, creating a rock would be silly, unless it was a gigantic hollow cover so that a really big Nazi spaceship could be hidden inside ;-)

The scenario.

We see this "huge" asteroid coming toward the Earth.
Cut to the Earth and we see a Nuke slowly ascending.
Cut to Mission control looking very busy.
Cut to the asteroid slowly, majestically spinning.
Cut to the Nuke going much faster now, does a fly-by the camera.
Cut to mission control.
Cut to a side shot of the Nuke screaming along.
Cut to a slow asteroid.
Cut to the Nuke.
Cut to Mission control.
Cut to slow asteroid. [repeat as many times to build tension]
Just as the Nuke is about to impact the asteroid, the asteroid takes a sidestep, and the Nuke flies harmlessly off into space [coujld be used as a gag later in the movie]
Cut to Mission control, everyone has a WFT!!! expression.

Asteroid busts open to either reveal the Nazi fleet or the Uber Spaceship.

---

I was just wondering how good the Nazi technology is. If it's only lunar orbital, then dragging chunks of rock from space would be a problem. Creating an asteroid is highly unlikely, but it is ludicrous ;-)

(null) October 25, 2009 12:19 Flag

Charles, I don't know what the technical reality is, but just speaking as a cinema-goer I would personally find it more believable to see a rock diverted rather than created. But maybe that's just me... :)

Charles Anderson October 25, 2009 12:06 Flag

Well I don't know about that. The one thing we know is that the Nazi's traveled to the moon.

What we don't know is, if the Nazi's technology continued to develop. Chances are it wouldn't due to insufficient resources.

Our science of today can allow a person to reach the moon and come back, however we haven't gone any further than that.

On the other hand, maybe the Nazi technology when first utilised is far superior to the current Earth nations.

Regards Charles

Thierry Gschwind October 23, 2009 17:15 Flag

It could be made also quite visual, when several saucer launch rope on the staroid and start pulling in one direction.
Also compared to a 200m rock, the saucer would still have a decent size, which would be credible, compared too much larger astreoids, also these would create way too much damage.

(null) October 23, 2009 16:37 Flag

Also, diverting an asteroid to deliberately hit earth is a nice contrast to all these Hollywood films where they're diverting an asteroid to make it miss earth.

(null) October 23, 2009 16:36 Flag

I think Thierry is on to something: if you can leave earth orbit then you can travel to quite a wide range of places in the solar system.

Also, it does seem a lot more plausible for them to divert an existing asteroid rather than creating their own. I'm not a physicist so I don't know what the reality of that is, but a diverted asteroid just seems more believable than a created one.

Jin-roh_thumb
Carl Voluntaryist November 01, 2009 21:40 4 Thumb-ups
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How about a Near-Earth-Object instead?

46P/Wirtanen "could reach naked-eye visibility during its 2018 return. With perihelion falling on 2018 December 12 and the comet passing 0.0776 AU from Earth just four days later"
http://cometography.com/pcomets/046p.html

Its diameter is estimated at 1.2 km!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46P/Wirtanen

If I were a SpaceNazi, I'd rush on over to that comet, break it into a bunch of smaller fragments, and send 'em on their way to rain death & destruction upon my enemies!!!

Alternately there would be Asteroid 2008 BT18, due to pass earth at a distance of 0.14 AU in april 2018.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_BT18
Actually a double-asteroid with one being 600m, the other 200m in diameter. http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/weltall/0,1518,565575,00.html
Maybe the smaller part of this double, is actually a nazi-UFO prepping it for mayham?

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Carl Voluntaryist November 01, 2009 21:44 Flag

On that note I checked NASA for future NEO passes.
You can find the list at: http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/neo_ca?type=NEO&hmax=all&sort=date&sdir=ASC&tlim=future&dmax=0.1AU&max_rows=500&action=Display+Table&show=1
Scroll down to 2018, find a suitable one, and pass the nomenclature through Wikipedia.

Of course, It could also be just another newly-discovered NEO.
They seem to be popping up by the bushel...

The gynormous amount of these things points to the feasability of the idea IMHO!

Goofy_aliens_b_thumb
Luke Fallon November 01, 2009 04:44 3 Thumb-ups
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Meteor Hits

This is just the basic information I found at NASA

Meteor diameter - 160 m
Yield (Megatons) - 10 -100
Consequences - irons,stones hit ground; comets produce airbursts; land impacts destroy area size of large urban area (New York, Tokyo)

As others have already mentioned, it would be easier and more practical for the Nazis to find the appropriate rock already in space. They could then use small explosions to aim the meteor. When it's close enough to Earth a ship can be used to make the aim more precise. Even if the meteor crashed into the ocean near New York the tsunami it would produce would certainly wipe out the city.

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Timo-Heikki Mäkelä November 01, 2009 19:35 Flag

That's clear and concise.

When I first suggested use of meteors as bombs, I actually calculated approximate figures to know the size of required stones, which match those. 150 m diameter stones just sound like excessively huge to be dug and raised from Moon, although "just and just imaginable". Such huge stones would more likely need to be towed from the asteroid belt, but that would be a heck of a long tow. Digging or dragging a couple of huge rocks from the asteroid belt doesn't really sound worth it in comparison to raising several much smaller rocks from the Moon. (20-50m stones sound much more possible, and yet they can each destroy a relatively big city as well. Yet one rock of diameter 150 m weighs the same as 125 pieces of diameter 30 m!) So, my view was they'd rather choose many more but smaller stones.

Each scenario is ok. Bigger stones do cause more destruction, of course, and enable effects smaller rocks won't. But dozen's of cities being bombed enables more spread destruction around the globe in various cities. At the end it's the script writer's and director's call, of course.

No-user-picture-set
Tuomas Perttula November 01, 2009 19:32 2 Thumb-ups
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Impact effect calculator

Here's an impact effect estimator to do all that pesky maths included in the equations:

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/

It also gives some kind of estimation about the different phases of impact, eg. when the rock starts breaking up in the athmosphere, and what will happen in a given distance from the impact and when.

"Your position was inside the transient crater and ejected upon impact"

Bad luck...

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