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Great/terrible original features in other games

Created at February 24, 2010
Created by Matti Delahay
Deadline Not set
Shots given 14
Reference media

Thumbs ranking

(null) More than just the game in the packaging
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11/21%
Regis Robert What about achievements?
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7/13%
Markus Koskivirta Alien Swarm gameplay mechanic
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4/7%
Risto Koskenkorva Inventory (from bad to worse)
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4/7%
Angela R. Bad: Endless Dying & No Alternate Path
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4/7%
Markus Koskivirta Quicktime and/or mood-choices
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4/7%
Sami Laulajainen a New bench mark for the NPC?
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3/5%

Description

In this task you can post any outstanding features from other games - whether really great and innovative or something completely abyssmal and game-wrecking. The motivation for this is, rather than planning on blatantly copying everything from others, simply to discover some clever (or less clever) ideas that others have thought of and that we can learn from somehow. :)

It doesn't matter if the game is old or new, nor whether you think it's (overall) good or bad, as long as it has some feature you thought of as noteworthy.

It's helpful if the genre of the game is somehow related to ours, but I'm not setting any strict rules for this - if you can think of any way your idea could be of use to us, don't hesitate to post it.


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Shots

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Richard Q February 07, 2012 06:56 1 Thumb-up
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Free choice vs. Fate

While having a game let you take part in an epic adventure is great. Writting your own adventure is often so much better.

While I'm not saying go 100% open sandbox. Multiple story paths, and endings is something that helps the entertainment and replayability of a game.

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Sami Laulajainen August 12, 2010 15:51 3 Thumb-ups
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a New bench mark for the NPC?

That kinda interacting would be cool

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Matti Delahay August 16, 2010 08:24 Flag

Cool video!

Angela R. August 12, 2010 21:24 Flag

Awesome and scary at the same time, I'd dare say...

Seppo Hiltunen August 12, 2010 16:15 Flag

I saw a good immersion into a game's world when my son was playing Descend with his classmate. I don't remember which one was playing, but he tried to peek behind the objects by moving his head closer to see what was there lurking behind the corner. And on a tight flying manouveur on that game he literally dropped off his chair, because he lost his balance. Good presentations about technological possibilities, thanks!

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Mkoskivismall_thumb
Markus Koskivirta July 20, 2010 21:13 4 Thumb-ups
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Alien Swarm gameplay mechanic

Have you played the new very-very-similar-to-but-not-quite-Shadowgrounds game, Alien Swarm yet? It's been released freely on Steam and I've been hacking away at it.

I can tell you that the mechanics are pretty nifty for a fairly simple "run and gun" game. If your action man storyline is even a bit like a straight run through objectives, I suggest you pick the game up. It's free, it's fun and it just might give some ideas for your design-team. The interiors (especially the lighting) have been done very well and the game engine has been released in its entirety as well.

Here's to hoping you'll beat Alien Swarm in the action and show everyone else how storybased gaming can work in a similar environment.

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Matti Delahay July 21, 2010 10:27 Flag

We'll definitely be testing the game, it's free and sounds like good fun.

Thanks for the cheers! :)

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Jonathan Eyre June 24, 2010 12:05 2 Thumb-ups
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Terrible/ Good examples

If you after ww2 games that are already out on the market tthen take a lok at "The Sabateur" because that has free-playing events as well as a main campaign. The ability to climb anything like on assassins creed is something that alot of gamers would like to stop feeling restricted during the levels, this will also open the levels and give multiple ways to trvael to desitinations and complete missions and so forth.

Another game which relates is mass affect which although it isnt ww2 like in this game it involves character customisation and being able to lead other CPU's if they applies.

If going down the RPG route then vehicles are also a great way to open up gameplay and stop the gameplay becoming repetative of walking and shooting to an objective.

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Matti Delahay June 28, 2010 10:12 Flag

Jonathan: Your friend is welcome to join too so that we can credit him for his ideas. :)

Jonathan Eyre June 28, 2010 09:57 Flag

I i know it wont be like other genres in some respects, however this idea was for however one of my friends was interested in the project and he just wants this to be a success when he realised what we are doing. :)

Plus the option is there if you wished to incorperate them. I surpose it was late to mention but he likes to get his oar in so to speak. :P

Matti Delahay June 28, 2010 08:39 Flag

Thanks for the suggestions, Jonathan! As Markus pointed out, most of these are things that don't work well with our current engine and game concept, but all ideas are welcome.

Markus Koskivirta June 26, 2010 09:26 Flag

I'm pretty sure the game engine will restrict all these things. When the platform has been decided, it's not useful to compare it to other "genres".

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Sami Laulajainen March 18, 2010 20:34 2 Thumb-ups
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Aiming guns.

Mouse = Good

Zapper = Awesome

everything else awful.

How are you planning to overcome the console aiming problem? Auto aim like in GTA?

A custom Ironsky zapper that looks like a MAUSER would be nice.

Everybody is buying the guitar hero guitars too. :)

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Comments

Sami Laulajainen March 26, 2010 13:33 Flag

I'll have to wait and see. Still searching for the Shadowgrounds .

Matti Delahay March 26, 2010 10:55 Flag

As Markus said, the control scheme should work pretty well by using mouse on PC and game pads for console versions.

Elluegophere March 18, 2010 20:57 Flag

I am definitely for a mouse-mouse. dressed in a ss-uniform. and she should squeak "sieg heil!" after every kill.

Sami Laulajainen March 18, 2010 20:48 Flag

nope, gotta check it out .

Markus Koskivirta March 18, 2010 20:43 Flag

Shadowgrounds

Sami Laulajainen March 18, 2010 20:42 Flag

Being a PC gamer since 1989 and a PS3 gamer since 2009 i'm a hard one to convert :) I've mastered Test Drive, Doom, Wing Commander and F-15 with keyboard and I rather use the keyboard than controller pads.

Which games are you talking about?

Markus Koskivirta March 18, 2010 20:35 Flag

Have you played the games done with the engine the guys are using? It's pretty simple to convert the aiming for the controller-pads.

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Tablet_thumb
Angela R. February 25, 2010 12:16 4 Thumb-ups
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Bad: Endless Dying & No Alternate Path

Allow me to start this shot by ensuring you I do understand and value the challenge offered in a game by the possibility of dying and having to repeat steps/rethink one's actions in order to survive and proceed. :)

Now, said that... if there is a thing I find extremely demotivating in a game, that is being stuck at some point when I keep dying over and over again... especially if this happens because I need to very quickly shoot a big number of baddies. This because my reaction speed sucks. Big times. Accuracy is not a problem, but if speed is a critical factor, I truly do not have any hope of success. I am not kidding - I may give up the game or in some cases I have had to ask help to friends to get through the one screen. Which is extremely humiliating to say the least. :/

So I'd like to ask the production to try and keep in mind "alternate paths" to simply shooting one's way through.... possibly for the most difficult fighting scenes in the "commando" path, too. As in... even if shooting would be the most practical way to go forward for the skilled people amongst us, perhaps there should be ways to "avoid" such trouble (or make things easier) by following a longer path that allows the player to make their own life easier e.g. through the use of a flamethrower or hand grenade or other trick?

The way I see it, one won't risk feel they're hopeless at the game if after dying over and again in the same room they could freely choose whether they want to try more times until they get it right or rather go seek for other options.

Of course, the "shooting scenario" is just a sample. In general, my feeling is that if there's a chance to die in a specific scene, then there should be multiple options to get past it... just in case the player may have personal limits that make it impossible for them to follow that one specific given path.

Not a requirement, of course. Merely a wish... :)

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Bruno March 18, 2010 19:13 Flag

I'm sorry, I was assuming that it was more shooter-oriented.

And you're right, enemies using such shields would be terribly frustrating. It would end up like of those solutions that brings new problems.

Matti Delahay March 18, 2010 08:18 Flag

Bruno: It sounds like an idea that would work pretty well if the game was more shooter-oriented - two thirds of the game (the two other storylines) look like they'll have next to no situations like this. With the soldier, on the other hand, we'll allow him to heal rapidly when in cover so simply being careful and not rushing things you can make the game a bit easier.

The shield might also carry the risk of making combat with enemies wielding such shields somewhat frustrating?

Bruno March 05, 2010 23:15 Flag

I agree with you. I'm don't usually play shooters, so I lack the needed reaction time that they require. The last one I played, Black (PS2), was one of these. My solution was to train "headshooting", which worked wonders, until meeting enemies carrying shields.

Reading your post, reminded of that, and made me think that a shield could provide an alternative to players like us. It would be a thin steel shield, of similar dimensions of a roman tower shield, made by the nazis to improve personal protection. I also imagined it having a thin layer of victalen, the suposed heat-resistant material of saucers' hulls, to make it impervious to flamethrowers. It would be like having a cover all the time.

Its possible disavantages could be 1) It is heavy, and the player can't run while using it 2)Even if it fits the inventory (assuming it's not a simple backpack), has a lot of weight or occupies much space 3) Can't be put on the inventory and has to be carried always, altough that could be too much of a problem for the player 4) It can save you from bullets and fire, but a lucky grenade or molotov cocktail can go over it 5) No matter how good it is, there's a limit to its resistance, and after a certain amount of damage, it becomes useless. 6) Using a shield limits the player to use only one-handed weapons. I'm not saying to put all of these, but 1, 4, 5 and 6 look mandatory to me.

It wouldn't be actually such a life-saver, only a possibility to certain players and/or situations, such as rocket launchers.

I offer a visual aide: the one found on Keith Thompson website, http://www.keiththompsonart.com/pages/gunnershield.html, looks awesome,combining a modern riot shield and the gun shields found on WW2 armored cars.

Matti Delahay February 26, 2010 07:22 Flag

Good points here, we'll do our best to comply with your wish. :)

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Wolfgang_thumb
Elluegophere March 14, 2010 18:11 2 Thumb-ups
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good/terrible examples

Characters.
good one:
Monkey Island 1. guybrush. Got his name from the filename. "guy.brush"
Character: unknown. Parents: unknown. Who cares? He is charming. He wants to be a pirate! So what?

bad one:
Beneath a steel sky. Character: Whatever. He is boring. Boring enough to make his "Robo-Dog" so much more exciting.

Inventory:

bad one:

Still Life 2
Due to limited inventory-space, you have to store certain things into cupboards, which are allocated in that huge psyho-killer-house. Could be an interesting mindgame.
Problem: If you try to solve a puzzle and find out you stored /picked up something wrong or too early or too late, you have to run all the way back through this huge maniac mansion house, back to that very cupboard. That harms the whole "frightening atmosphere. BTW. The Character moved very bad. THAT was frightening to look at!

General terribles:
All the games out there containing interesting, awesomely perfect parts which are not fitting together to make the game awesome as "a whole".

I do not care so much, if some parts are a bit loosen or not plausible, if it doesen't harm the main picture.

Example:
Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl. Inconvenient Inventory system, weapons get damaged just because you used them! Not plausible. But it didn't harm the athmosphere. You had to hurry and find better weapons or find your way to the next mechanic. Before the zombies eat you. Or the dogs.

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Carl L. March 14, 2010 23:16 Flag

Weapons can be damaged from use if the ammo is packed with low-quality propellant. Or if they aren't disassembled & cleaned/oiled after use.

Sometimes it's better not to render/implement every step in a game, just to make it more realistic. The slow breakdown of weapons in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. might have been the programmer's way of condensing all that so the player doesn't get distracted from running away & crying like a little girl. Or whatever that game was about. ;D

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Regis Robert February 26, 2010 14:21 7 Thumb-ups
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What about achievements?

I find that Achievements in game are really fun. It's also pretty cool to unlock extra content with them. For Example,batman arkham asylum's achievements and hidden things are great. With these things, you can make a ending's percentage . It's very gratifying to see Iron sky: Campaign: 100% .
BTW, sorry for my poor English, I'm French ^^

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Angela R. March 02, 2010 09:38 Flag

*shudders*

Seppo Hiltunen March 02, 2010 09:33 Flag

what about mirrors in 3rd person games, reflecting the player character in some places... ;)

Angela R. March 02, 2010 09:11 Flag

Well, the idea *IS* funny... at least in a toilet humor kind of way... I just wonder how much the average player would enjoy the sight of an improperly dressed *masculine* toon walking around the base like that... since this is a 3rd person game. ;)

Matti Kortet March 02, 2010 09:00 Flag

Actually, now that we have thought about it, killing tons of enemies while improperly dressed begins to sound quite a fun achievement...I guess it's the danger of silly ideas :D

Angela R. March 02, 2010 08:22 Flag

"Kill 1000 000 enemies with a knife while naked"

Oh dearie me... :P

Matti Delahay March 02, 2010 07:37 Flag

Yes, we'll certainly be implementing Achievements, and we're doing our best to make them interesting and motivating rather than repetitive and dull to hunt for - no "Kill 1000 000 enemies with a knife while naked" -achievements for us. :P

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Sami Laulajainen February 24, 2010 09:58 1 Thumb-up
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The bullet -time effect of MAX PAYNE

Is awesome. If there is a shootout in IS:OH add that. please.

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Matti Delahay March 02, 2010 07:54 Flag

Markus: Agreed, we'll try to think things through from a pretty functional perspective - it seems quite clear we can't be building the whole game around BT. :P

Markus Koskivirta February 26, 2010 10:03 Flag

On the other hand, bullet-time is so ridiculously overused nowadays that it might not work that well. I've read a lot of reviews lately which have seen that implementing a game-mechanic like that has been more a negative than a positive, considering that other areas of the game may have suffered due to time being invested in a worn-out "gimmick" like BT.

So, what I'm trying to say is, if you can get it done without it eating up too much time from the production and if it would fit the game and not feel like a tacky glue-on feature, then by all means do it. Otherwise, not so crucial.

Sami Laulajainen February 24, 2010 15:48 Flag

That would be nice.

Thanks.

Matti Delahay February 24, 2010 14:27 Flag

We'll discuss the combat mechanics within the next couple of weeks so this was a very well timed shot. :)

Can't promise anything yet, but we'll certainly consider the possibility.

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Mkoskivismall_thumb
Markus Koskivirta February 26, 2010 19:58 4 Thumb-ups
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Quicktime and/or mood-choices

I've recently been playing Memento Mori and I very vividly remember Fahrenheit. I'm also drooling for Heavy Rain, but that'll have to wait for a while =).

These great action/adventure-games have a few things in common. They all implement a non-linear choice-system, where you don't see exactly what all your choices are. This is a good and a bad thing in many ways.

Quicktime-events are a personal favorite of mine, because they very rarely contain something negative. Fahrenheit used these, but failed in a way, since if you didn't react quick enough, you died. Almost always. That was more than a bit annoying, so what I'd like to see is quicktime-events that change the course of your actions, but even if you fail them, the story goes on. Just with a different setting or a bit less info gained or whatever. Of course it can be used as a "fighting mechanic", but then people should be given plenty of time to react, so they don't end up going over the same stuff multiple times.

In Memento Mori, the chat-system works with 3 simple alternatives. "Positive, negative, questioning". This system is pretty good, altough the options are usually too vague. The tips about what will happen when you push this button should be clearer, with more tooltips and options. 3 choices is good, any more could be confusing. The game also uses timing, as in if you don't choose one yourself and the timer runs out, the game automatically chooses the "bad" one of the three. So it's always better to make a guess than let the timer run out. There are also a few problems with this, but as an idea it's quite feasible.

In Heavy Rain, the dialogue is based on "quicktimeish" choices, where you sort of see what each of your choices will do. the choices are made with either the buttons or the directional arrows of the controller. This system on paper seems the best of the three, but since I've yet to try it, I can't exactly tell yet.

Now, as a sidenote, Memento Mori uses a very, very ingenious saving system. It makes individual automatic saves at the change of every chapter, so you can pick up the game from the "main path choices" whenever you wish. But, there's a big but in this, if you make individual saves and then after failing a dialogue choice (and thus f. ex. killing one person) try to reload the previous save, the game will remember the first time decision you made. So you can't "replay" the parts already played in that save. This mechanic adds a whole lot of replay value, since you can't go through all the options and pick and choose the one you like the most. I myself was at first quite annoyed with it, but later on realized this made the game a lot more intriguing. All your choices actually mattered. You had to think and choose, but pretty quickly.

If it's possible to have this similar sort of memory, it would be awesome.

Edit: Typos and stuff

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Matti Delahay March 02, 2010 07:44 Flag

Quicktime events as they are are a bit of a double edged sword - while they do keep the players on their toes, they can also be frustrating (especially when the failure leads to instant death, as you already mentioned: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PressXToNotDie ). The way they've done it in Heavy Rain sounds awesome, even with the critique towards it being sometimes difficult to deduce what the different direction gestures in a specific situation do.

Anyways, we've been talking about this and I don't think we'll be doing them per se, at least not with a time limit. However, we are working on a similar system to make the dialogue and storytelling more fluent and to better integrate the dialogue and other gameplay. Hopefully you'll find it engaging when you get your hands on it. :)

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